Senedd Home
Oggy Bloggy Ogwr
State of Wales
Saturday, October 3, 2026
  • About & Contact
    • About State of Wales
    • Comments Policy
    • Complaints Policy
    • Contact
    • Disclaimer
  • Elections Centre
  • The Independence Index
    • The Independence Index (Full)
    • Foreign Policy
      • Relations with the former UK & Ireland
      • Relations with Europe
      • Foreign Policy (General)
      • International Organisations & Law
      • Overseas Aid
    • Defence
      • Defence Policy
      • NATO
      • Armed Forces
      • National Security
      • Civil Defence
    • Rules & Regulations
      • Safety & Standards
      • Intellectual Property
    • Economics & Money
      • Business & Economy
      • Currency
      • Tax & Spending
      • Transport & Infrastructure
    • Society
      • Communities & Housing
      • Culture & Sport
      • Education
      • Health
      • Media & Communications
      • Science & Technology
    • The State
      • Environment & Natural Resources
      • Justice
      • Local Government
  • Support & Donate
No Result
View All Result
  • About & Contact
    • About State of Wales
    • Comments Policy
    • Complaints Policy
    • Contact
    • Disclaimer
  • Elections Centre
  • The Independence Index
    • The Independence Index (Full)
    • Foreign Policy
      • Relations with the former UK & Ireland
      • Relations with Europe
      • Foreign Policy (General)
      • International Organisations & Law
      • Overseas Aid
    • Defence
      • Defence Policy
      • NATO
      • Armed Forces
      • National Security
      • Civil Defence
    • Rules & Regulations
      • Safety & Standards
      • Intellectual Property
    • Economics & Money
      • Business & Economy
      • Currency
      • Tax & Spending
      • Transport & Infrastructure
    • Society
      • Communities & Housing
      • Culture & Sport
      • Education
      • Health
      • Media & Communications
      • Science & Technology
    • The State
      • Environment & Natural Resources
      • Justice
      • Local Government
  • Support & Donate
No Result
View All Result
State of Wales
No Result
View All Result
Home Constitution

IndyWales, Titles & Heraldry

A look at how peerages, landed titles, lieutenancies, ceremonial officers of state and heraldry may work in an independent Wales.

Owen Donovan by Owen Donovan
June 3, 2022
in Constitution, State Symbols
IndyWales, Titles & Heraldry

theconversation.com

Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on RedditShare on BlueskyShare by email

While I’ve looked at the issue of the monarchy (and how it may or may not fit an independent Welsh constitution) in 2020 – perhaps relevant given recent polling – there’s also the hangers-on to deal with and the pomp and ceremony attached to them.

This is a re-write of a piece from 2015. For some reason I can’t quite put my finger on, this week of all weeks seemed to be the best time to revisit the remnants of the feudal system, the landed classes and various tiers of hat worship.

A Welsh Constitution IV (a): Head of State – Constitutional Monarchy
Constitution

A Welsh Constitution IV (a): Head of State – Constitutional Monarchy

May 11, 2020
A Welsh Constitution V (c): The State – Welshness in a Welsh Constitution
Constitution

A Welsh Constitution V (c): The State – Welshness in a Welsh Constitution

May 22, 2020
IndyWales & The Honours System
Culture & Sport

IndyWales & The Honours System

June 6, 2022

1. What would happen to peerages/peers after independence?

  • 1. What would happen to peerages/peers after independence?
  • 2. The “Great Officers of State” & Independence
  • 3. Lieutenancies & Independence
  • 4. Would an independent Wales need a Governor-general?
  • 5. Heraldry & Independence
Previous
Next
“Working peers” can claim up to £323-per-day just for turning up to the House of Lords. (Pic: via Twitter)


Hereditary peerages

The following is an oversimplification, but at some point hundreds of years ago, someone’s great-great-great etc. grandfather or uncle (they were almost always men) was bigger and stronger than everyone else’s. They probably also had a better understanding of military tactics, could pay for more soldiers or had better weapons and/or fortifications.

If they demonstrated loyalty to people higher up the pecking order (including the monarch) or proved useful in other ways, they were usually granted land and titles which – as long as they remained loyal – would pass down the family line.

Outside the royal family, the highest-ranked hereditary titles are dukedoms, marquessates and earldoms. Below these, you have viscountcies and baronies (hereditary lords).

There are currently no dukedoms in Wales, but there are three marquessates (Anglesey, Milford Haven and Abergavenny).

The next highest-ranked hereditary peerages in Wales are earldoms. Some have been in families for generations (Carnarvon [sic], Powis [sic]); others are more recent creations (Snowdon, Denbigh, Merioneth [sic], Lloyd-George).

Earldoms are generally linked to pre-1974 shires. However, many titleholders don’t live in Wales or don’t hold any land rights or estates here.

I don’t need to bore you with lists of hereditary viscounts and barons, but there are quite a few of them in Wales. Most are held by prominent local families. Once again, there are few working estates left and most of the castles and stately homes have passed into public trust – whether that’s the National Trust or other organisations.

Life peers

Life peers are those who’ve been made barons and viscounts through the honours system. The main difference with the titles listed earlier is that the title doesn’t pass down the family line, becoming extinct when the titleholder dies.

The main function of a life peer is to sit in the UK House of Lords (though it’s not a strict requirement and those that do so regularly are known as “working peers”). So it’s a political office as much as it is part of the honours system. Hereditary peers can sit in the House of Lords as well, though their numbers are capped and, laughably, they need to hold a by-election amongst hereditary peers whenever a vacancy arises.

Life peers are normally granted a title in a geographical area they’re heavily associated with (“territorial designation”), so it’s usually styled as Baron/Baroness (Name) of (Place).

There are around 40 Welsh life peers (including those who are Welsh but linked to areas outside Wales, like Michael Heseltine).

At least seven are either serving or ex-members of the Senedd – Mike German (Lib Dem), Christine Humphreys (Lib Dem), Jenny Randerson (Lib Dem), Eluned Morgan (Lab), Byron Davies (Con), Dafydd Wigley (Plaid Cymru) and Dafydd Elis-Thomas (Plaid Cymru/Independent).

Peerages & Independence

So, what are the options when it comes to peerages and independence?

Peers keep their titles, with no changes – All existing hereditary and life peers would keep their current titles, with hereditary peers being able to pass the title down the family line. New Welsh peerages can be awarded. Presumably, this option would only work if Wales retains the English monarch as head of state.

A constitutional ban on new hereditary titles and titles of nobility – As above, existing hereditary and life peers would keep their current titles until the titles become extinct. At that point, no new hereditary titles of nobility or life peerages can be created.

This is what happened to most of the Irish peerages after independence, with a constitutional ban on creating new hereditary titles1. Similarly, the US also bans US citizens from accepting titles from foreign monarchies without the approval of Congress2. Most noble families in European republics (France, Germany, Italy etc.) have retained their titles too even if it has no meaning.

Create a separate Welsh peerage system as part of a Welsh honours system – More on this next week, but it could work if Wales either revived a Welsh monarchy or pursued the “Norwegian option” and created a Welsh constitutional monarchy by offering the position to a member of the English royal family. I’m not a fan of the idea, but it’s an option.

Create a peer-based Senedd second chamber – If Wales decides to have a second Senedd chamber (particularly one where members are appointed rather than elected) then members could have a peerage, effectively creating a Welsh House of Peers/Lords with the same role as the UK House of Lords. Sitting Welsh life peers would be offered seats first. Once again, I’m not in favour of this personally. We all know the problems with the House of Lords already. If we’re going to have a second chamber, it should at least be elected.

Abolish all titles of nobility and peerages – This may be difficult as titles are for all intents and purposes personal property. That doesn’t mean it can’t happen – France technically did it at least twice; once following the French Revolution and again in 1870. Even then, members of the French nobility are allowed to use their titles as part of their name with French Government permission – though it comes with no formal status or order of precedence.

Even if Wales retains the monarch as head of state, my favoured option would be to go down the Irish and American route. Allow sitting life peers and hereditary peers to keep their titles until they go extinct, then place a ban on creating new titles (or accepting new titles from a foreign state) without the approval of the Senedd.

Manorial Rights & Independence

A claim by a “Lord of the Manor” on Anglesey in 2013 would have affected 4,000 households – though it was later dropped. (Pic: Daily Post)


This is another – far more annoying – feudal relic.

“Lords of the Manor” often have certain rights over other people’s land, such as sporting or mineral rights. This means some people may have bought a property or land without realising they didn’t have full control over it. Many of these titles are/used to be sold on the open market – some for novelty value, others to exercise said manorial rights.

The UK Parliament passed an Act in 2002 which required all manorial rights to be registered with the Land Registry by 13th October 2013. They received 73,000 applications3.

One of the main obstacles to abolishing manorial rights is that affected title holders would be entitled to compensation. The Scottish Parliament passed a law abolishing manorial rights in 2000 but had to set up a compensation scheme4 – though property law in Scotland is quite different to Wales (and England).

The Senedd may be able to abolish manorial rights now, but I’m not sure.

You would struggle to justify keeping this system; the best argument in favour of doing so would be the time and effort needed to abolish manorial rights would be disproportionate to the problem.

The most practical way to approach it would be similar to Scotland.

Manorial rights would be abolished on a fixed date, after which titleholders would have a set period (it was 2 years in Scotland) in which to claim compensation – compensation set at the lowest rate allowable or a peppercorn figure.

1 – Constitution of Ireland (1937), Article 40, 2, 1°-2° .
2 – United States Constitution (1787), Article 1, Section 9.
3 – UK House of Commons Library (29th August 2018). “Registration of Manorial Rights”. Available at https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN07072/SN07072.pdf
4 – Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc. (Scotland) Act 2000.

1. What would happen to peerages/peers after independence?

  • 1. What would happen to peerages/peers after independence?
  • 2. The “Great Officers of State” & Independence
  • 3. Lieutenancies & Independence
  • 4. Would an independent Wales need a Governor-general?
  • 5. Heraldry & Independence
Previous
Next
Tags: Christian PartyCommonwealthConstitutionFranceHead of StateHeritageHonours & TitlesIndependenceIrelandLocal GovernmentProperty & ConstructionScotlandSeneddState EventsThe MonarchyUK GovernmentUK ParliamentUSAVisual ArtsWelsh Government
Previous Post

IndyWales, Cultural Heritage & Listed Buildings

Next Post

IndyWales & The Honours System

Owen Donovan

Owen Donovan

Archive

Categories

Copyright

Creative Commons Licence

State of Wales by Owen Donovan is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Subscribe by Email

Search

No Result
View All Result
No Result
View All Result
  • Go To Senedd Home
  • Go To Oggy Bloggy Ogwr
  • About & Contact
    • About State of Wales
    • Comments Policy
    • Complaints Policy
    • Contact & Subscribe by Email
    • Disclaimer
  • Features
    • After the UK
    • Chinny Reckon
    • Devil’s Advocate
    • How Wales Works
    • Road to Brexit
  • The Independence Index
    • The Independence Index (full)
    • Economics & Money
      • Business & Economy
      • Currency
      • Tax & Spending
      • Transport & Infrastructure
    • Society
      • Communities & Housing
      • Culture & Sport
      • Education
      • Health
      • Media & Communications
      • Science & Technology
    • The State
      • Environment & Natural Resources
      • Justice
      • Local Government
  • Elections Centre
  • Wales FAQ
    • How is Wales funded?
    • How are laws in Wales made?
  • Support & Donate